Lukahn a écrit:Base commune : Marth - Fox : Chain grab. 27% = tilt haut to grab.
Base commune :
A lot of people think this match-up is even. I think that's a fairly good estimate, but I think Marth has better stage options in a tournament setting. Whether it's even or 55/45 is really irrelevant though... the point is Fox can do a lot to you if you mess up.
How you want to view this match-up is summarized in one sentence: "Don't get grabbed." Actually, both players view the match-up this way since they both get so much out of grabs.
Fox has a lot he can do to you period. He's fast enough that he can control the space of the stage very, very well. If you throw out a random move, he can punish the lag behind it easily with his own combo, grab, etc. When I started out I'd try to just SHFFL aerials and approach him. This is a TERRIBLE idea (especially when done mindlessly). A good fox will observe this pattern, and punish it. Fox's main punishments are shine combos (nair shine, dair shine, continue on that, etc), or just straight up grabbing you into an uair.
Speaking of that, uthrow to uair is a bread and butter combo for Fox, and guaranteed on Marth at virtually any percent. If you get grabbed, it is safe to assume that you're going to get upthrown into an uair. This is a big thing Fox abuses in this match-up and will punish you with if you allow him to grab you. There is no real defense for this, two things aside:
1. Don't get grabbed (say that to yourself as you play Fox
)
2. You can smash-DI out of the second hit. The most reliable method I've found to do is input the "dash dance" on the joystick after he grabs you (that way he'll have to watch your DI from the grab itself as well). With any luck, you can get out of some of the uairs coming your way.
2.2. Just work on smashing the control stick in a direction. It's been pointed out to me that if you DI in front of the Fox then he can get more uairs on you, and if you successfully smash-DI both hits then you eat the uair anyways. This gets into a very technical level and I'd say a better mindset is to not get grabbed, and relying on a smash DI is not good. However, do whichever you're more comfortable with when the situation arises.
Now let's talk about what you do to Fox. This is where it gets fun (also read: gay). Marth is forced to play a very punishing game against Fox. A lot of people say play defensively. I think this is improperly phrased. They don't mean create as much space as possible between you two, they mean space yourself so that you can punish Fox's approach while staying safe (I guess that's every match-up, but in general it means don't approach with silly aerials, that will just get you punished).
How you need to be playing is maintaining that perfect space. Fox can not out camp you. Sure he can laser camp, but when he jumps he limits his own options a lot (if your spacing is correct) and leaves openings that you can abuse (such as beginning fair combos into a grab). So, camp Fox until he approaches you. He will try to dash dance and grab you, or approach with an aerial. If you read the grab, then you can just wavedash back, fsmash, short hop fair, sh nair, etc. If you read the aerial, then the best thing you can do is go for the grab. Shield grabbing fox's can be difficult, as he has smaller shield pressure holes, so I'd recommend wavedashing back and going for a grab, or straight up dash dancing into a grab. Also, if you wavedash back grab too much, he can just overshoot his aerials and still hit you. This becomes a mix up and you should just fair out of shield instead.
To summarize: Try to bait his approaches. Get the grab whenever possible, as this is your best option. If he is in the air, try to punish with your own nair/fairs. If he poorly spaces on the ground, either go in for the grab or tip your dash attack on him.
Now, once you get those things...
From a grab, uthrow chains on him until around 19%. At this percent if he's DIing away then you will have to move and regrab. If he has no DI then you will have to pivot grab him (as he can shine out). Once he gets high-20s (28~), you can uthrow to utilt and watch for where he goes. Often you can get a turn around grab out of it, redo it, and go for uair/utilt combos and finish with a fsmash. The biggest thing to keep in mind here is a lot of Marths just utilt without watching it. They're like "Oh man uthrow utilt so good... but wait I didn't tip and now Fox is across FD." You have to watch for the tipper utilt for it to be good.
Also, if you get the grab and he's at 60-90ish%, then upthrow to fsmash does wonders. You will have to walk a little bit to one side or the other if he doesn't DI at all, but it is a true combo.
From a fair/nair, depending on DI and tipper/inner hits, you want to push for a grab. This is your main source of punishment against a Fox player. If he DI's in on your fairs, continue your SH double fairs until he DIs out or just do it and finish it with a spike (again, bread and butter on the entire cast basically).
From a tipped dash attack, it is very dependent on percent. If the percent is at kill level, then you want to just watch his DI, then fsmash him. It should be behind you, and it should hurt -- a lot. If it's at a lower percent, this can lead into a ftilt/grab and combo on from there as described above.
The basic idea is, don't get grabbed, punish as much as you can. That is a lot of Marth match-ups, but Fox gets a lot out of grabs and it's very obvious once you start playing high level Foxes. You can not let the Fox control the pace of the match and get free grabs on you.
In terms of gimping, the basic idea is that space animals hold their breath if you throw them off the stage. Once you get a stock, you can take the ledge and repeatedly drop/jump/regrab ledge. This will make them atleast approach the ledge and close the initial space. From here going for a grab is very good. If you grab them near the ledge at 0, then dthrow to a turnaround dtilt is said to be guaranteed. From here if they jump away to phantasm, you can cover it with a jab then follow them down for an inner fair/reverse upb. If they go for the fire fox recovery, then it's best to cover with a dtilt (or counter if they will clearly hit it) followed by the drop inner air or reverse upb.
Stage selection:
You ideally want to wind up at Battlefield, Yoshi's Story, or Final Destination for your first match. All of these are good or equal stages in my eyes. A lot of people say the match is truely 50/50 on FD, but I think it's still good for Marth, since you can virtually 0 to death combo Fox once you get the grab combos down. Fountain of Dreams is also viable, however I personally dislike this stage.
In terms of counter picks, Fox's seem to like to take us to Pokemon Stadium. I'm not certain why. I guess it's a good stage for him, and the transformations allow him to use his speed to control space, but largely it doesn't change the match-up much. Abuse platforms as much as possible, go for grabs, punish bad spacing/DI. The only "bad" stage I view really is Dream Land. This is because Fox has plenty of room to move around, and Marth can not use the platforms to abuse him as much. However, it has a high ceiling, so his main kill on you is also hurting because of this selection. I view the match as very even on this stage.
Good Stages: Yoshi's Story, Battlefield, Final Destination
Bad Stages: Dreamland, Pokemon Stadium (I guess)
The rest of the counter picks are fairly bad for both, so I won't bother listing them (this is a bit rule specific, but in general you will be fighting on the stages above if the Fox has much sense).
How you want to view this match-up is summarized in one sentence: "Don't get grabbed." Actually, both players view the match-up this way since they both get so much out of grabs.
Fox has a lot he can do to you period. He's fast enough that he can control the space of the stage very, very well. If you throw out a random move, he can punish the lag behind it easily with his own combo, grab, etc. When I started out I'd try to just SHFFL aerials and approach him. This is a TERRIBLE idea (especially when done mindlessly). A good fox will observe this pattern, and punish it. Fox's main punishments are shine combos (nair shine, dair shine, continue on that, etc), or just straight up grabbing you into an uair.
Speaking of that, uthrow to uair is a bread and butter combo for Fox, and guaranteed on Marth at virtually any percent. If you get grabbed, it is safe to assume that you're going to get upthrown into an uair. This is a big thing Fox abuses in this match-up and will punish you with if you allow him to grab you. There is no real defense for this, two things aside:
1. Don't get grabbed (say that to yourself as you play Fox
)2. You can smash-DI out of the second hit. The most reliable method I've found to do is input the "dash dance" on the joystick after he grabs you (that way he'll have to watch your DI from the grab itself as well). With any luck, you can get out of some of the uairs coming your way.
2.2. Just work on smashing the control stick in a direction. It's been pointed out to me that if you DI in front of the Fox then he can get more uairs on you, and if you successfully smash-DI both hits then you eat the uair anyways. This gets into a very technical level and I'd say a better mindset is to not get grabbed, and relying on a smash DI is not good. However, do whichever you're more comfortable with when the situation arises.
Now let's talk about what you do to Fox. This is where it gets fun (also read: gay). Marth is forced to play a very punishing game against Fox. A lot of people say play defensively. I think this is improperly phrased. They don't mean create as much space as possible between you two, they mean space yourself so that you can punish Fox's approach while staying safe (I guess that's every match-up, but in general it means don't approach with silly aerials, that will just get you punished).
How you need to be playing is maintaining that perfect space. Fox can not out camp you. Sure he can laser camp, but when he jumps he limits his own options a lot (if your spacing is correct) and leaves openings that you can abuse (such as beginning fair combos into a grab). So, camp Fox until he approaches you. He will try to dash dance and grab you, or approach with an aerial. If you read the grab, then you can just wavedash back, fsmash, short hop fair, sh nair, etc. If you read the aerial, then the best thing you can do is go for the grab. Shield grabbing fox's can be difficult, as he has smaller shield pressure holes, so I'd recommend wavedashing back and going for a grab, or straight up dash dancing into a grab. Also, if you wavedash back grab too much, he can just overshoot his aerials and still hit you. This becomes a mix up and you should just fair out of shield instead.
To summarize: Try to bait his approaches. Get the grab whenever possible, as this is your best option. If he is in the air, try to punish with your own nair/fairs. If he poorly spaces on the ground, either go in for the grab or tip your dash attack on him.
Now, once you get those things...
From a grab, uthrow chains on him until around 19%. At this percent if he's DIing away then you will have to move and regrab. If he has no DI then you will have to pivot grab him (as he can shine out). Once he gets high-20s (28~), you can uthrow to utilt and watch for where he goes. Often you can get a turn around grab out of it, redo it, and go for uair/utilt combos and finish with a fsmash. The biggest thing to keep in mind here is a lot of Marths just utilt without watching it. They're like "Oh man uthrow utilt so good... but wait I didn't tip and now Fox is across FD." You have to watch for the tipper utilt for it to be good.
Also, if you get the grab and he's at 60-90ish%, then upthrow to fsmash does wonders. You will have to walk a little bit to one side or the other if he doesn't DI at all, but it is a true combo.
From a fair/nair, depending on DI and tipper/inner hits, you want to push for a grab. This is your main source of punishment against a Fox player. If he DI's in on your fairs, continue your SH double fairs until he DIs out or just do it and finish it with a spike (again, bread and butter on the entire cast basically).
From a tipped dash attack, it is very dependent on percent. If the percent is at kill level, then you want to just watch his DI, then fsmash him. It should be behind you, and it should hurt -- a lot. If it's at a lower percent, this can lead into a ftilt/grab and combo on from there as described above.
The basic idea is, don't get grabbed, punish as much as you can. That is a lot of Marth match-ups, but Fox gets a lot out of grabs and it's very obvious once you start playing high level Foxes. You can not let the Fox control the pace of the match and get free grabs on you.
In terms of gimping, the basic idea is that space animals hold their breath if you throw them off the stage. Once you get a stock, you can take the ledge and repeatedly drop/jump/regrab ledge. This will make them atleast approach the ledge and close the initial space. From here going for a grab is very good. If you grab them near the ledge at 0, then dthrow to a turnaround dtilt is said to be guaranteed. From here if they jump away to phantasm, you can cover it with a jab then follow them down for an inner fair/reverse upb. If they go for the fire fox recovery, then it's best to cover with a dtilt (or counter if they will clearly hit it) followed by the drop inner air or reverse upb.
Stage selection:
You ideally want to wind up at Battlefield, Yoshi's Story, or Final Destination for your first match. All of these are good or equal stages in my eyes. A lot of people say the match is truely 50/50 on FD, but I think it's still good for Marth, since you can virtually 0 to death combo Fox once you get the grab combos down. Fountain of Dreams is also viable, however I personally dislike this stage.
In terms of counter picks, Fox's seem to like to take us to Pokemon Stadium. I'm not certain why. I guess it's a good stage for him, and the transformations allow him to use his speed to control space, but largely it doesn't change the match-up much. Abuse platforms as much as possible, go for grabs, punish bad spacing/DI. The only "bad" stage I view really is Dream Land. This is because Fox has plenty of room to move around, and Marth can not use the platforms to abuse him as much. However, it has a high ceiling, so his main kill on you is also hurting because of this selection. I view the match as very even on this stage.
Good Stages: Yoshi's Story, Battlefield, Final Destination
Bad Stages: Dreamland, Pokemon Stadium (I guess)
The rest of the counter picks are fairly bad for both, so I won't bother listing them (this is a bit rule specific, but in general you will be fighting on the stages above if the Fox has much sense).
Plutôt. C'est ça des "grandes lignes" pour moi.
Inutilité : Up tilt sors en 9 frames. (j'ai aucune pu**** d'idée de combien de frames ça met réellement)
Voilà.
